1 00:00:08,390 --> 00:00:04,960 [Music] 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:08,400 this is somewhere in the skies with 3 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:09,410 Ryan's bread 4 00:00:30,130 --> 00:00:27,700 [Music] 5 00:00:32,530 --> 00:00:30,140 her number of years CIA had been 6 00:00:35,410 --> 00:00:32,540 tracking Soviet work in the so-called 7 00:00:38,740 --> 00:00:35,420 ESP area and they're really concerned 8 00:00:40,330 --> 00:00:38,750 because the Soviets including the KGB 9 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:40,340 were spending millions of dollars every 10 00:00:45,220 --> 00:00:42,650 year on this kind of phenomena they're 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:45,230 very concerned about what could be being 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:47,330 done to us they were specifically 13 00:00:52,510 --> 00:00:50,050 interested in whether individuals could 14 00:00:55,119 --> 00:00:52,520 extract information or get information 15 00:00:57,670 --> 00:00:55,129 from remote sites or from hidden 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:00:57,680 material and so it was critical to them 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:00,290 to find out you know just what abilities 18 00:01:05,950 --> 00:01:03,530 do people have a batch of declassified 19 00:01:08,050 --> 00:01:05,960 CIA documents revealed the agencies 20 00:01:08,770 --> 00:01:08,060 dealing with the paranormal is now 21 00:01:10,270 --> 00:01:08,780 official 22 00:01:12,430 --> 00:01:10,280 according to the secret files the 23 00:01:14,350 --> 00:01:12,440 Central Intelligence Agency used a team 24 00:01:16,540 --> 00:01:14,360 of military trained telepathic 25 00:01:19,060 --> 00:01:16,550 individuals during the Iran embassy 26 00:01:21,780 --> 00:01:19,070 siege nearly 40 years ago the program 27 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:21,790 named grill flame was established in 28 00:01:26,590 --> 00:01:24,290 1975 and began as research into 29 00:01:29,230 --> 00:01:26,600 paranormal abilities but it's start turn 30 00:01:30,940 --> 00:01:29,240 came in 1979 when the telepaths were 31 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:30,950 used to provide information on where the 32 00:01:35,500 --> 00:01:32,690 hostages were being held inside the 33 00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:35,510 embassy and the state of their health it 34 00:01:40,030 --> 00:01:37,790 really comes of no surprise that our 35 00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:40,040 intelligence agencies would attempt to 36 00:01:45,070 --> 00:01:42,320 obtain information by any means 37 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:45,080 necessary but as we heard from former 38 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:46,250 director of projects 39 00:01:51,399 --> 00:01:49,130 dr. Harold put off the CIA went to such 40 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:51,409 great lengths during the Cold War as to 41 00:01:56,649 --> 00:01:53,510 bring in psychics who they believed 42 00:01:59,800 --> 00:01:56,659 could Remote View Soviet and KGB targets 43 00:02:02,200 --> 00:01:59,810 and spy on them as we also heard this 44 00:02:05,109 --> 00:02:02,210 was later used in project grill flame 45 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:05,119 during the Iran and Bissell siege the 46 00:02:10,030 --> 00:02:06,530 overall project was officially 47 00:02:12,490 --> 00:02:10,040 terminated in 1995 having reached no 48 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:12,500 solid conclusions on the accuracy of 49 00:02:17,410 --> 00:02:15,170 remote viewing and psychic abilities but 50 00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:17,420 the CIA's involvement goes far deeper 51 00:02:23,380 --> 00:02:20,480 than race and as we'll hear from today's 52 00:02:26,170 --> 00:02:23,390 guests the wars waged with the mind and 53 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:26,180 a Military Intelligence sense may still 54 00:02:33,620 --> 00:02:30,330 be far from any Jacobson is a journalist 55 00:02:36,970 --> 00:02:33,630 best-selling author in 2016 Pulitzer 56 00:02:39,650 --> 00:02:36,980 Prize finalist her books area51 57 00:02:42,290 --> 00:02:39,660 Operation Paperclip and the Pentagon's 58 00:02:44,450 --> 00:02:42,300 brain were New York Times bestsellers 59 00:02:47,090 --> 00:02:44,460 and have been collectively published in 60 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:47,100 many languages today we'll be talking 61 00:02:52,220 --> 00:02:49,770 about her newest book phenomenon the 62 00:02:54,470 --> 00:02:52,230 secret history of the US government's 63 00:02:58,100 --> 00:02:54,480 investigations into extrasensory 64 00:03:00,380 --> 00:02:58,110 perception and psychokinesis we'll hear 65 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:00,390 how the idea of psychic warfare all 66 00:03:06,620 --> 00:03:03,570 began in the u.s. who was involved and 67 00:03:09,530 --> 00:03:06,630 even how this all can be connected to 68 00:03:11,630 --> 00:03:09,540 the UFO topic as a whole so without 69 00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:11,640 further ado let's get to the interview 70 00:03:17,570 --> 00:03:15,120 with Annie Jacobson Annie thank you so 71 00:03:19,490 --> 00:03:17,580 much for joining me today well thank you 72 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:19,500 for having me it's an absolute pleasure 73 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:20,850 I've been following your work for a 74 00:03:26,510 --> 00:03:23,730 while now and if there's anything I've 75 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:26,520 I've learned from reading all your books 76 00:03:31,130 --> 00:03:29,610 there is definitely a running theme of 77 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:31,140 digging deep into the Intelligence 78 00:03:36,650 --> 00:03:34,170 Agency apparatus and this new book does 79 00:03:38,199 --> 00:03:36,660 just that as well but with a very 80 00:03:40,790 --> 00:03:38,209 interesting topic and that's 81 00:03:42,740 --> 00:03:40,800 psychokinesis and ESP and you found a 82 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:42,750 pretty interesting link that ties all 83 00:03:47,210 --> 00:03:44,610 your books together something that they 84 00:03:47,900 --> 00:03:47,220 all seem to always come back to would 85 00:03:50,930 --> 00:03:47,910 you mind 86 00:03:52,610 --> 00:03:50,940 touching on that briefly with us yes and 87 00:03:56,479 --> 00:03:52,620 thank you for noticing that that all 88 00:03:58,460 --> 00:03:56,489 roads lead to the Nazis at least when 89 00:04:01,580 --> 00:03:58,470 you're a national security reporter 90 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:01,590 covering war weapons u.s. national 91 00:04:07,670 --> 00:04:05,370 security and secrets and phenomena is no 92 00:04:11,390 --> 00:04:07,680 different I began the story the kind of 93 00:04:14,390 --> 00:04:11,400 launch point is this discovery by US 94 00:04:17,780 --> 00:04:14,400 intelligence agents at the end of the 95 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:17,790 war they were called Operation owl sauce 96 00:04:26,180 --> 00:04:22,730 and they discover a weird trove of 97 00:04:28,909 --> 00:04:26,190 heimlich Heinrich Himmler's science 98 00:04:33,110 --> 00:04:28,919 department documents the department was 99 00:04:35,810 --> 00:04:33,120 called das on an airbase and this unit 100 00:04:40,159 --> 00:04:35,820 within it explored extrasensory 101 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:40,169 perception psychokinesis map dowsing and 102 00:04:43,930 --> 00:04:42,810 then also very extreme forms of the 103 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:43,940 occult 104 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:46,910 which Himmler was pursuing and pushing 105 00:04:53,380 --> 00:04:50,210 among his SS men and we discovered this 106 00:04:55,780 --> 00:04:53,390 weird cache of documents and samuel 107 00:04:59,650 --> 00:04:55,790 goudsmit who was the lead physicist at 108 00:05:01,990 --> 00:04:59,660 the time hunting down atomic secrets and 109 00:05:03,610 --> 00:05:02,000 you know biological weapons secrets and 110 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:03,620 all these other things I write my other 111 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:06,170 book Operation Paperclip kind of cast 112 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:09,650 aside this weirdo what he thought was a 113 00:05:15,970 --> 00:05:13,550 sort of weirdo supernatural research but 114 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:15,980 it comes back into play later because 115 00:05:21,580 --> 00:05:18,650 you're a few years later because what we 116 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:21,590 find out that the Soviets got the other 117 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:24,170 half of the dust on America documents 118 00:05:28,690 --> 00:05:26,690 that dealt with the supernatural if you 119 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:28,700 will and naturally I think the launching 120 00:05:36,010 --> 00:05:31,970 point for this extraordinary battle 121 00:05:38,950 --> 00:05:36,020 between science and the supernatural is 122 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:38,960 it fact is it fantasy you know and this 123 00:05:43,630 --> 00:05:41,090 this question drives the narrative and 124 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:43,640 boy was intensely interesting to 125 00:05:49,420 --> 00:05:46,220 research and report on this because it's 126 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:49,430 such a mystery oh I can I can only 127 00:05:55,420 --> 00:05:52,310 imagine and I mean and within your your 128 00:05:58,270 --> 00:05:55,430 research you do mention that toward the 129 00:06:01,210 --> 00:05:58,280 end of world war ii in mixing that magic 130 00:06:03,970 --> 00:06:01,220 in the supernatural that these files 131 00:06:06,970 --> 00:06:03,980 were split amongst us and the Russians 132 00:06:09,310 --> 00:06:06,980 which is extremely enticing in terms of 133 00:06:11,170 --> 00:06:09,320 ESPN psychokinesis for our listeners who 134 00:06:14,650 --> 00:06:11,180 may not really know the difference 135 00:06:16,810 --> 00:06:14,660 between ESP and psychokinesis could you 136 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:16,820 like could you briefly give us the clips 137 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:19,550 notes on that of course I mean 138 00:06:24,730 --> 00:06:22,370 extrasensory perception is what ESP 139 00:06:27,610 --> 00:06:24,740 stands for and it's it almost says it 140 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:27,620 says it itself it's gaining knowledge 141 00:06:36,220 --> 00:06:31,010 from the means other than the five known 142 00:06:38,710 --> 00:06:36,230 senses and so the Sixth Sense has in the 143 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:38,720 modern era kind of been console graded 144 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:40,730 with the idea of seeing ghosts I think 145 00:06:46,390 --> 00:06:42,530 largely because of the movie by that 146 00:06:49,780 --> 00:06:46,400 same title but the Sixth Sense over over 147 00:06:52,690 --> 00:06:49,790 a broader period of decades has really 148 00:06:55,230 --> 00:06:52,700 been used to mean that I the kind of 149 00:06:57,610 --> 00:06:55,240 let's say divinatory 150 00:06:59,080 --> 00:06:57,620 power an idea of prekow 151 00:07:02,140 --> 00:06:59,090 cognition an idea that you could see the 152 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:02,150 future that you could know the unknown 153 00:07:09,490 --> 00:07:06,490 that you could also have knowledge about 154 00:07:12,909 --> 00:07:09,500 you know information that could be used 155 00:07:15,909 --> 00:07:12,919 as what the CIA would call intelligence 156 00:07:21,060 --> 00:07:15,919 collection psychokinesis on the other 157 00:07:25,870 --> 00:07:21,070 hand is in short summary using the mind 158 00:07:27,850 --> 00:07:25,880 to affect matter so scientific skeptics 159 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:27,860 would tell you that pseudoscience and 160 00:07:33,879 --> 00:07:30,289 that's not possible people who are in 161 00:07:36,300 --> 00:07:33,889 the work and study this say oh yes it is 162 00:07:39,700 --> 00:07:36,310 and there's a whole host of 163 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:39,710 psychokinetic abilities that range from 164 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:43,130 say you know bending a spoon with the 165 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:45,380 tip of the tongue and I mean a tip of 166 00:07:52,409 --> 00:07:48,289 the of the fingertip and the command 167 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:52,419 Bend as a regular does or even 168 00:08:00,360 --> 00:07:56,930 meditation or like monks who are able to 169 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:00,370 sit in freezing cold water and actually 170 00:08:04,810 --> 00:08:02,930 adjust their body temperature so that 171 00:08:08,940 --> 00:08:04,820 they don't suffer from hypothermia 172 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:08,950 that's the gamut of psychokinetic 173 00:08:13,420 --> 00:08:11,690 abilities right right and we've heard 174 00:08:16,750 --> 00:08:13,430 you know similar accounts of like this 175 00:08:18,330 --> 00:08:16,760 is what we could consider a mutant as it 176 00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:18,340 were if you were looking at it from a 177 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:21,110 comic book standpoint but on a more 178 00:08:27,909 --> 00:08:23,690 serious level any in the early days of 179 00:08:30,659 --> 00:08:27,919 what we now know as MKULTRA the CIA if 180 00:08:34,420 --> 00:08:30,669 I'm correct they used magicians 181 00:08:36,190 --> 00:08:34,430 hypnotist and even a witch this really 182 00:08:38,140 --> 00:08:36,200 caught my attention in your book could 183 00:08:40,510 --> 00:08:38,150 you tell us a little about Sybil leak 184 00:08:44,170 --> 00:08:40,520 and her work with the u.s. intelligence 185 00:08:49,269 --> 00:08:44,180 agency what's interesting about her is 186 00:08:51,550 --> 00:08:49,279 she's been completely you know buried if 187 00:08:53,290 --> 00:08:51,560 you will her work as I found with a 188 00:08:55,060 --> 00:08:53,300 number of others really interesting 189 00:08:58,480 --> 00:08:55,070 people who pop up here in my book 190 00:09:01,810 --> 00:08:58,490 because there is so much stigma attached 191 00:09:03,820 --> 00:09:01,820 to it simple leap was a famous witch in 192 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:03,830 Britain she was a white witch meaning 193 00:09:10,879 --> 00:09:06,530 she only used her powers for good but 194 00:09:13,340 --> 00:09:10,889 she allegedly left England in ninth 195 00:09:15,139 --> 00:09:13,350 44 because witches were still being 196 00:09:16,999 --> 00:09:15,149 persecuted according to her and I 197 00:09:19,129 --> 00:09:17,009 interviewed her son who's in charge of 198 00:09:20,749 --> 00:09:19,139 all of her papers he lives here in the 199 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:20,759 United States and an interestingly and 200 00:09:26,210 --> 00:09:24,929 NASA photographer but she allegedly 201 00:09:28,999 --> 00:09:26,220 moved here because she was being 202 00:09:31,999 --> 00:09:29,009 persecuted but in truth she became a CIA 203 00:09:35,419 --> 00:09:32,009 asset and she was used along with a 204 00:09:40,059 --> 00:09:35,429 number of other people more famously in 205 00:09:44,150 --> 00:09:40,069 the 50s like magicians very separate 206 00:09:47,479 --> 00:09:44,160 subject which is using magician's stage 207 00:09:51,549 --> 00:09:47,489 magicians who are actually using tricks 208 00:09:55,729 --> 00:09:51,559 and deception to fool someone into 209 00:09:58,849 --> 00:09:55,739 believing something believing in 210 00:10:03,139 --> 00:09:58,859 psychokinesis whereas those who have 211 00:10:06,499 --> 00:10:03,149 psychokinetic powers are working from 212 00:10:10,999 --> 00:10:06,509 the premise that they actually have a 213 00:10:13,789 --> 00:10:11,009 yet on scientifically unknown ability to 214 00:10:15,889 --> 00:10:13,799 affect matter with their mom intercede 215 00:10:19,249 --> 00:10:15,899 and now you did mention the name Eric 216 00:10:21,619 --> 00:10:19,259 Geller a moment ago and could you 217 00:10:23,749 --> 00:10:21,629 briefly run us through who this guy was 218 00:10:27,229 --> 00:10:23,759 in his connection with the CIA 219 00:10:28,970 --> 00:10:27,239 Murray was a CIA asset and we know that 220 00:10:32,389 --> 00:10:28,980 now from these declassified documents 221 00:10:35,239 --> 00:10:32,399 that I report on in the book and you 222 00:10:38,449 --> 00:10:35,249 know people know regular as the spoon 223 00:10:42,289 --> 00:10:38,459 bender so you might and you know there's 224 00:10:46,189 --> 00:10:42,299 a million different reasons why people 225 00:10:48,889 --> 00:10:46,199 might have a preconception in their mind 226 00:10:50,929 --> 00:10:48,899 that he's a fraud or magician and 227 00:10:54,159 --> 00:10:50,939 there's a million reasons why people 228 00:10:57,499 --> 00:10:54,169 might swear by his talents all 229 00:11:01,129 --> 00:10:57,509 preconception I what I aim to do in the 230 00:11:04,729 --> 00:11:01,139 book in my hours and hours of interviews 231 00:11:06,859 --> 00:11:04,739 with Geller was to try and neutrally 232 00:11:08,329 --> 00:11:06,869 present the facts of Geller's story and 233 00:11:11,539 --> 00:11:08,339 let the reader decide what they think 234 00:11:14,139 --> 00:11:11,549 because I found Geller remarkable I mean 235 00:11:16,579 --> 00:11:14,149 I interviewed him at his home in London 236 00:11:19,759 --> 00:11:16,589 and I also interviewed him I spent 237 00:11:24,109 --> 00:11:19,769 several days with him in Israel 238 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:24,119 interviewing him just a remarkable part 239 00:11:28,329 --> 00:11:24,450 of 240 00:11:30,530 --> 00:11:28,339 and I think but the his entree into 241 00:11:33,410 --> 00:11:30,540 intelligence collection where the CIA 242 00:11:36,769 --> 00:11:33,420 began in the 70s when he became this 243 00:11:39,939 --> 00:11:36,779 famous figure sort of a pop-culture 244 00:11:41,150 --> 00:11:39,949 figure doing the talk show circuit 245 00:11:42,710 --> 00:11:41,160 bending 246 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:42,720 you know spoons with his mind and also 247 00:11:49,009 --> 00:11:46,250 reading having telepathy like putting a 248 00:11:51,550 --> 00:11:49,019 peep an often trick they would do it 249 00:11:54,350 --> 00:11:51,560 Geller as someone would draw out a 250 00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:54,360 sketch and then put it in a sealed 251 00:11:59,210 --> 00:11:56,880 envelope Geller would be sitting in this 252 00:12:01,670 --> 00:11:59,220 talk show you know where the talk-show 253 00:12:03,439 --> 00:12:01,680 host and then he would be given the 254 00:12:07,189 --> 00:12:03,449 sealed envelope and he would be asked to 255 00:12:10,519 --> 00:12:07,199 draw it and you know time and again he 256 00:12:12,110 --> 00:12:10,529 would do a remarkable assimilation of 257 00:12:14,569 --> 00:12:12,120 the drawing and people just went crazy 258 00:12:16,970 --> 00:12:14,579 for him plus he was handsome plus he had 259 00:12:19,370 --> 00:12:16,980 this lovely accent Israeli accent plus 260 00:12:20,750 --> 00:12:19,380 he was charming and he just really you 261 00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:20,760 know took on the scene you may say well 262 00:12:25,250 --> 00:12:22,889 what would what what did the CIA have 263 00:12:27,199 --> 00:12:25,260 care about any of that what they cared 264 00:12:31,340 --> 00:12:27,209 about was his alleged psychokinetic 265 00:12:33,170 --> 00:12:31,350 abilities the fact that he could you 266 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:33,180 know bend a spoon with his finger and 267 00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:37,290 the command bent and specifically what 268 00:12:42,350 --> 00:12:39,690 was worries him to them and again these 269 00:12:45,530 --> 00:12:42,360 are declassified Defense Department 270 00:12:47,630 --> 00:12:45,540 reports that show that state you know if 271 00:12:50,980 --> 00:12:47,640 Geller could do this to a spoon what 272 00:12:54,860 --> 00:12:50,990 might he be able to do to the delicate 273 00:12:57,170 --> 00:12:54,870 electronic system on an ICBM carrying a 274 00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:57,180 nuclear warhead that's what they cared 275 00:13:03,250 --> 00:12:59,279 about and they brought Geller to the 276 00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:03,260 United States to test him in a lab under 277 00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:07,649 CIA handlers and scientists physicists 278 00:13:14,420 --> 00:13:12,180 who were commissioned by the CIA to work 279 00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:14,430 on this research program with remarkable 280 00:13:21,370 --> 00:13:18,000 results I mean remarkable result CIA 281 00:13:24,259 --> 00:13:21,380 drawing the inescapable conclusion that 282 00:13:26,050 --> 00:13:24,269 his powers existed as a real phenomenon 283 00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:26,060 they couldn't explain why mm-hmm that's 284 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:28,260 absolutely fascinating that the CIA 285 00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:31,529 would ultimately admit that yes ESP 286 00:13:38,869 --> 00:13:36,660 psychokinesis are real now the the 287 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:38,879 debate I guess would be 288 00:13:42,199 --> 00:13:41,310 someone like arre Gellar this seemed to 289 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:42,209 have come at birth 290 00:13:47,210 --> 00:13:44,850 this came natural but you also did some 291 00:13:50,269 --> 00:13:47,220 heavy research into the debate within 292 00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:50,279 the intelligence agencies on if people 293 00:13:55,069 --> 00:13:53,160 could be trained to be come psychic now 294 00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:55,079 it's not true what was this debate and 295 00:14:00,590 --> 00:13:57,360 that's the battleground that most 296 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:00,600 interested me because it was it's a 297 00:14:04,579 --> 00:14:02,250 debate I could really wrap my head 298 00:14:07,009 --> 00:14:04,589 around as a journalist I mean it's hard 299 00:14:09,379 --> 00:14:07,019 to just have two sides shouting at one 300 00:14:11,749 --> 00:14:09,389 another you know ESP is real and then 301 00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:11,759 that would be the the people in the work 302 00:14:15,710 --> 00:14:14,220 and then the skeptics saying ESP is 303 00:14:17,420 --> 00:14:15,720 nonsense and they're all charlatans 304 00:14:19,730 --> 00:14:17,430 fraudsters and snake oil salesmen I mean 305 00:14:21,530 --> 00:14:19,740 there's very little room for journalism 306 00:14:23,749 --> 00:14:21,540 in that debate because the two sides are 307 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:23,759 so entrenched and in essence what they 308 00:14:28,629 --> 00:14:26,490 do is just you know they kind of 309 00:14:31,519 --> 00:14:28,639 surround themselves with a lot of 310 00:14:33,410 --> 00:14:31,529 individuals who support only their ideas 311 00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:33,420 and that they're kind of existing in an 312 00:14:37,699 --> 00:14:35,040 echo chamber again that's my opinion 313 00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:37,709 what I wanted to do is look at the 314 00:14:45,290 --> 00:14:40,649 debates within the debates to try to you 315 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:45,300 know uncover the essence of what might 316 00:14:48,559 --> 00:14:47,130 mean something for the future because 317 00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:48,569 we'll get to this later but my goodness 318 00:14:53,329 --> 00:14:50,880 the research is still going on today 319 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:53,339 that's surprised even a number of the 320 00:14:58,009 --> 00:14:55,050 scientists who have worked on these 321 00:15:02,269 --> 00:14:58,019 programs for decades so the debate began 322 00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:02,279 at the CIA with a very legendary CIA 323 00:15:07,069 --> 00:15:05,279 doctor named dr. Christopher Greene he 324 00:15:11,449 --> 00:15:07,079 goes by kit Green and he was the 325 00:15:15,710 --> 00:15:11,459 original physiologist assigned to look 326 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:15,720 at the biology the physiology the human 327 00:15:22,309 --> 00:15:19,050 you know interior if you will of Geller 328 00:15:24,889 --> 00:15:22,319 of another super psychic named Ingo 329 00:15:27,259 --> 00:15:24,899 Swann another super psychic named Pat 330 00:15:30,530 --> 00:15:27,269 price all of who were the leading 331 00:15:34,129 --> 00:15:30,540 psychics at CIA for CIA during the 70's 332 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:34,139 and greens job was to examine them in 333 00:15:39,470 --> 00:15:37,290 every possible you know neurological 334 00:15:41,809 --> 00:15:39,480 biological physiological task that 335 00:15:43,850 --> 00:15:41,819 existed in the 70s which compared to 336 00:15:47,059 --> 00:15:43,860 what we have today was not a lot I mean 337 00:15:49,980 --> 00:15:47,069 the MRI was just coming online that was 338 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:49,990 exciting in 1973 339 00:15:53,670 --> 00:15:52,330 Green would look at these individuals 340 00:15:57,630 --> 00:15:53,680 and then they were being tested by 341 00:15:59,880 --> 00:15:57,640 physicists and scientists to look at 342 00:16:02,610 --> 00:15:59,890 their performance and their conclusion 343 00:16:06,690 --> 00:16:02,620 as a whole was and I'm paraphrasing here 344 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:06,700 but we don't know why they have the 345 00:16:12,810 --> 00:16:09,190 talent that they have but we know that 346 00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:12,820 it's individualistic and the analogy 347 00:16:18,510 --> 00:16:16,660 that both green and put off and Jacques 348 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:18,520 Vallee who was also involved in this 349 00:16:23,820 --> 00:16:21,310 told me is that they said the best 350 00:16:26,730 --> 00:16:23,830 analogy is the Mozart analogy so Annie 351 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:26,740 can't sing in the shower and you think 352 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:29,050 of what Mozart was capable in terms of 353 00:16:37,230 --> 00:16:33,010 music and you just immediately get the 354 00:16:39,630 --> 00:16:37,240 idea of a ha so they would say Mozart 355 00:16:43,340 --> 00:16:39,640 was a super normal 356 00:16:45,750 --> 00:16:43,350 I just have normal bad singing voice 357 00:16:48,470 --> 00:16:45,760 Heat Mozart is a super normal not a 358 00:16:52,110 --> 00:16:48,480 paranormal but a super normal and they 359 00:16:53,940 --> 00:16:52,120 chose in that kind of CI a way of hey 360 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:53,950 let's live in the gray area because 361 00:16:59,400 --> 00:16:56,890 remember CIA always has a job to do 362 00:17:03,120 --> 00:16:59,410 which is intelligence collection so they 363 00:17:04,829 --> 00:17:03,130 wanted to exploit the talents that the 364 00:17:07,980 --> 00:17:04,839 Gellers the Pat prizes in the hangar 365 00:17:09,449 --> 00:17:07,990 swans hat and use that for their 366 00:17:12,179 --> 00:17:09,459 purposes and they were less concerned 367 00:17:14,579 --> 00:17:12,189 with trying to nail down is it real is 368 00:17:16,189 --> 00:17:14,589 it fact is it fantasy they were just 369 00:17:18,569 --> 00:17:16,199 saying okay it works in limited 370 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:18,579 extraordinarily strange and bizarre 371 00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:20,890 cases and yes it's not repeatable but 372 00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:22,720 never mind about that I mean it's not 373 00:17:26,850 --> 00:17:24,550 consistently with people and they focus 374 00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:26,860 on the individual and they felt this is 375 00:17:32,970 --> 00:17:30,130 a Mozart like town this sixth sense 376 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:32,980 right and I would assume you know it's 377 00:17:37,530 --> 00:17:35,170 not so much of if it's real or not but 378 00:17:40,110 --> 00:17:37,540 how it can benefit the intelligence 379 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:40,120 agencies and you know your your past 380 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:43,090 work showing how it can benefit the 381 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:45,010 military-industrial complex I would 382 00:17:47,940 --> 00:17:47,410 assume and I found these marvelous 383 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:47,950 marvelous 384 00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:50,410 you know once formally classified 385 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:52,990 documents that say almost exactly that 386 00:18:01,159 --> 00:17:55,690 which is never mind you know the debate 387 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:01,169 what can we the CIA do to exploit this 388 00:18:05,970 --> 00:18:03,610 and that I found 389 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:05,980 very interesting and it gave a lot of 390 00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:09,250 room for you know and of course these 391 00:18:13,980 --> 00:18:12,640 are highly classified programs so no one 392 00:18:16,650 --> 00:18:13,990 had to know I mean they didn't have to 393 00:18:19,290 --> 00:18:16,660 worry about you know such-and-such 394 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:19,300 senator finding out about it and you 395 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:22,270 know having a cow over this what would 396 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:24,190 be interpreted as wait as wasteful money 397 00:18:30,930 --> 00:18:27,330 although that debate I really I found 398 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:30,940 you know useless because the amount of 399 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:32,410 money that was spent on these programs 400 00:18:36,690 --> 00:18:35,170 is so small compared to the budgets that 401 00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:36,700 I looked at for my previous book the 402 00:18:41,310 --> 00:18:39,070 Pentagon's brain about DARPA but in any 403 00:18:45,930 --> 00:18:41,320 event the CIA was able to kind of play 404 00:18:48,270 --> 00:18:45,940 fast and loose with the the more stick 405 00:18:50,490 --> 00:18:48,280 the ideas of this area of research that 406 00:18:53,340 --> 00:18:50,500 are stigmatized traditionally because 407 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:53,350 they could rise above the fray take 408 00:18:58,550 --> 00:18:55,090 their work really seriously and figure 409 00:19:01,860 --> 00:18:58,560 out the best way to exploit this talent 410 00:19:05,250 --> 00:19:01,870 but then the CIA ran into trouble in the 411 00:19:07,890 --> 00:19:05,260 70s with its MKULTRA programs being 412 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:07,900 exposed it's you know LSD programs being 413 00:19:13,050 --> 00:19:10,330 exposed and suddenly the CIA found 414 00:19:14,490 --> 00:19:13,060 itself in a whole heap of trouble during 415 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:14,500 the church committee hearings and the 416 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:17,650 program needed to go because it was too 417 00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:20,500 incendiary were anyone to find out about 418 00:19:27,210 --> 00:19:24,430 it and so before up to that point DoD 419 00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:27,220 had been a client of CIA so you know in 420 00:19:33,990 --> 00:19:32,110 meaning NSA also FBI Secret Service you 421 00:19:36,420 --> 00:19:34,000 name it if the Joint Chiefs of Staff 422 00:19:38,220 --> 00:19:36,430 wanted some information from psychics 423 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:38,230 they would go to the CIA give them a 424 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:41,170 request and then the CIA would task the 425 00:19:45,090 --> 00:19:42,970 psychics on it well after the church 426 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:45,100 Commission hearings that all changed and 427 00:19:52,530 --> 00:19:49,450 the program was inherited by DoD and the 428 00:19:55,470 --> 00:19:52,540 things really shifted there and there 429 00:19:57,330 --> 00:19:55,480 was a movement away from this idea that 430 00:19:59,580 --> 00:19:57,340 it's individualistic that it's the 431 00:20:01,860 --> 00:19:59,590 Mozart analogy and it moved toward the 432 00:20:06,210 --> 00:20:01,870 idea of hey ESP is something that we can 433 00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:06,220 train soldiers to be able to do and 434 00:20:10,770 --> 00:20:09,460 grave problems rose absolutely yeah you 435 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:10,780 know when when the question of ethics 436 00:20:15,660 --> 00:20:13,870 comes into mind you really have to 437 00:20:16,830 --> 00:20:15,670 wonder like how deep are they willing to 438 00:20:21,149 --> 00:20:16,840 go and 439 00:20:22,889 --> 00:20:21,159 at whose expense we know many scientists 440 00:20:25,950 --> 00:20:22,899 have been exploited in terms of these 441 00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:25,960 types of things in their theories and 442 00:20:30,019 --> 00:20:28,870 you spoke to one scientist who worked on 443 00:20:32,399 --> 00:20:30,029 something called the quantum 444 00:20:35,369 --> 00:20:32,409 entanglement theory 445 00:20:37,799 --> 00:20:35,379 I found this deeply fascinating could 446 00:20:42,139 --> 00:20:37,809 you give us a brief brief summation any 447 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:42,149 of just exactly what this theory inhales 448 00:20:47,399 --> 00:20:45,970 so what what I really enjoyed in the 449 00:20:49,669 --> 00:20:47,409 narrative and what I love about writing 450 00:20:52,739 --> 00:20:49,679 narrative nonfiction is I find these 451 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:52,749 elderly statesmen if you will so this is 452 00:20:56,940 --> 00:20:54,850 the sort of scientist who would lead in 453 00:21:00,779 --> 00:20:56,950 these programs in the 70s when they were 454 00:21:03,210 --> 00:21:00,789 young and what and then interview them 455 00:21:05,369 --> 00:21:03,220 and look at how they evolved as 456 00:21:08,609 --> 00:21:05,379 scientists as you know human beings in 457 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:08,619 their vision over time and where they 458 00:21:16,019 --> 00:21:11,970 are today and Dale Graff was the 459 00:21:19,649 --> 00:21:16,029 scientist who really began the program 460 00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:19,659 at DoD so he learned about the CIA 461 00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:23,919 program from put off from what was being 462 00:21:29,369 --> 00:21:26,080 he took that as a model brought it to 463 00:21:32,220 --> 00:21:29,379 the Pentagon and became the progenitor 464 00:21:35,369 --> 00:21:32,230 of all these other programs that were 465 00:21:37,980 --> 00:21:35,379 that were that existed for the next 20 466 00:21:40,379 --> 00:21:37,990 years basically from 92 late 1970s 467 00:21:42,450 --> 00:21:40,389 all the way until the downfall of the 468 00:21:46,109 --> 00:21:42,460 program in the mid 90s Graff was in 469 00:21:49,019 --> 00:21:46,119 charge Graff was it was in essence 470 00:21:50,609 --> 00:21:49,029 second-in-command to a scientist named 471 00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:50,619 dr. Jack Verona at the Defense 472 00:21:55,919 --> 00:21:53,110 Intelligence Agency so what is Graff 473 00:21:58,980 --> 00:21:55,929 doing now well he took me to a call he's 474 00:22:01,320 --> 00:21:58,990 still in the work and his story is 475 00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:01,330 particularly interesting because you 476 00:22:05,279 --> 00:22:02,529 have that idea that we talked about 477 00:22:06,539 --> 00:22:05,289 either is it biological okay let me back 478 00:22:09,899 --> 00:22:06,549 up for a moment to give you a little 479 00:22:12,989 --> 00:22:09,909 little little groundwork here so the 480 00:22:14,820 --> 00:22:12,999 biological element of it is super 481 00:22:18,060 --> 00:22:14,830 interesting because it's saying this is 482 00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:18,070 a talent from within but within those in 483 00:22:24,539 --> 00:22:22,240 the work there is another group that 484 00:22:28,139 --> 00:22:24,549 believes this is also the within is 485 00:22:29,820 --> 00:22:28,149 attached to though without okay now if 486 00:22:31,620 --> 00:22:29,830 you want to take a scientific approach 487 00:22:33,779 --> 00:22:31,630 that you can say oh that's the Eureka 488 00:22:35,639 --> 00:22:33,789 moment that a number of scientists or 489 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:35,649 Nobel laureates talk about where they 490 00:22:39,930 --> 00:22:37,210 are suddenly given kind of an 491 00:22:43,139 --> 00:22:39,940 inspiration of something almost a divine 492 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:43,149 inspiration if you will so there are 493 00:22:48,210 --> 00:22:45,130 individuals who pursue this idea that 494 00:22:50,250 --> 00:22:48,220 it's not just a biological from within 495 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:50,260 it's from without there is some kind of 496 00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:52,690 a something that's where we get really 497 00:22:57,210 --> 00:22:54,510 tricky when you're talking in terms of a 498 00:22:59,580 --> 00:22:57,220 federal government because this touches 499 00:23:01,289 --> 00:22:59,590 upon the issues that you are interested 500 00:23:04,139 --> 00:23:01,299 in which have to do with ufology which 501 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:04,149 have to do with an intelligence you know 502 00:23:12,180 --> 00:23:07,710 outside of our universe if you will and 503 00:23:15,149 --> 00:23:12,190 many of the scientists adhere to that 504 00:23:18,090 --> 00:23:15,159 concept and I did not write about that 505 00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:18,100 in phenomena I indebted 506 00:23:23,970 --> 00:23:20,169 I talked a little bit about it but I 507 00:23:25,799 --> 00:23:23,980 felt that it was a it's its own subject 508 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:25,809 and I wanted to focus specifically on 509 00:23:30,149 --> 00:23:28,090 the battle the battleground of 510 00:23:32,879 --> 00:23:30,159 extrasensory perception in psychokinesis 511 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:32,889 but it's understood that those that that 512 00:23:39,590 --> 00:23:36,490 exists there and separate from that you 513 00:23:43,409 --> 00:23:39,600 have a very few amount of scientists 514 00:23:46,289 --> 00:23:43,419 Dale Graff among them who accept that 515 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:46,299 ESP is a real phenomena that 516 00:23:50,730 --> 00:23:48,250 psychokinesis is a real phenomena who 517 00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:50,740 have dedicated decades their entire life 518 00:23:54,690 --> 00:23:53,230 to this work but they do not believe it 519 00:23:56,399 --> 00:23:54,700 is from without at all 520 00:23:58,529 --> 00:23:56,409 they are the antithesis of a 521 00:24:00,450 --> 00:23:58,539 supernaturalists if you will they 522 00:24:01,980 --> 00:24:00,460 believe that it has to do with biology 523 00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:01,990 and it has to do with quantum physics 524 00:24:06,810 --> 00:24:05,230 and that's where Graff sits on the 525 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:06,820 spectrum which I found very interesting 526 00:24:14,909 --> 00:24:12,730 he rejects any kind of you know though 527 00:24:16,889 --> 00:24:14,919 without any kind of intelligence higher 528 00:24:18,899 --> 00:24:16,899 intelligence if you will and he says 529 00:24:22,070 --> 00:24:18,909 this is basic quantum physics it's 530 00:24:24,180 --> 00:24:22,080 something that I ensign referred to 531 00:24:27,029 --> 00:24:24,190 quantum entanglement is something that 532 00:24:30,509 --> 00:24:27,039 Einstein referred to as spooky action at 533 00:24:32,970 --> 00:24:30,519 a distance and in the simplest terms the 534 00:24:36,899 --> 00:24:32,980 way different physicists explained it to 535 00:24:42,210 --> 00:24:36,909 me is that if you have two electrons 536 00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:42,220 near one another they they jiggle one 537 00:24:45,220 --> 00:24:43,070 another let's say 538 00:24:50,590 --> 00:24:45,230 the metaphor okay and if you separate 539 00:24:52,779 --> 00:24:50,600 them even by as much as a galaxy as me 540 00:24:56,379 --> 00:24:52,789 shukaku said that's where the fireworks 541 00:24:59,230 --> 00:24:56,389 begin because they will also vibrate 542 00:25:03,759 --> 00:24:59,240 meaning they will they are connected 543 00:25:06,249 --> 00:25:03,769 they are inherently wiggling with one 544 00:25:08,379 --> 00:25:06,259 another aware of one another even if you 545 00:25:10,899 --> 00:25:08,389 separate them as far away as a gallon 546 00:25:14,019 --> 00:25:10,909 tree this was an idea spooky action at a 547 00:25:17,289 --> 00:25:14,029 distance posited by Einstein you know 548 00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:17,299 but never able to be proved in the 549 00:25:23,740 --> 00:25:20,809 laboratory well now in 2017 you have 550 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:23,750 scientists around the world conducting 551 00:25:29,919 --> 00:25:25,370 these experiments where they're able to 552 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:29,929 demonstrate that electrons have you know 553 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:31,250 essentially are communicating with one 554 00:25:36,490 --> 00:25:34,370 another around the world that would have 555 00:25:38,139 --> 00:25:36,500 to involve faster than light travel and 556 00:25:39,850 --> 00:25:38,149 that's where you get complicated and 557 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:39,860 that's where you have a guy like Graf 558 00:25:47,610 --> 00:25:42,850 says his idea for this and this is 559 00:25:52,629 --> 00:25:47,620 theoretical physicist physics now that 560 00:25:56,580 --> 00:25:52,639 this could account for extrasensory 561 00:25:59,230 --> 00:25:56,590 perception for faster than night light 562 00:26:02,889 --> 00:25:59,240 information-gathering for knowing what's 563 00:26:05,980 --> 00:26:02,899 happening across the world in this in 564 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:05,990 this moment and that concept is called 565 00:26:11,889 --> 00:26:08,570 retro causation and I write about in the 566 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:11,899 book attending a conference at UC San 567 00:26:17,049 --> 00:26:14,570 Diego with the world leading physicists 568 00:26:21,340 --> 00:26:17,059 in this area who pursue this line of 569 00:26:22,749 --> 00:26:21,350 thought as science of the future and I 570 00:26:25,860 --> 00:26:22,759 think one of the things I enjoy most 571 00:26:28,869 --> 00:26:25,870 about writing about these very esoteric 572 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:28,879 concepts is getting the world's experts 573 00:26:33,580 --> 00:26:31,129 to explain it to me in layman's terms 574 00:26:35,980 --> 00:26:33,590 because the people who are the smartest 575 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:35,990 in these subjects they're really able to 576 00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:38,450 as Einstein said you should be able to 577 00:26:45,340 --> 00:26:41,840 explain it to a child that's how easy it 578 00:26:47,769 --> 00:26:45,350 is right yeah you know the you're right 579 00:26:50,110 --> 00:26:47,779 the brightest of individuals should be 580 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:50,120 able to you know quote unquote dumb it 581 00:26:55,710 --> 00:26:53,290 down as simplest of terms as they can 582 00:26:58,590 --> 00:26:55,720 but that's an absolutely fascinating 583 00:27:02,750 --> 00:26:58,600 theory and I know others have looked 584 00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:02,760 into things such as quantum mechanics 585 00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,200 Edgar Mitchell comes to mind who's done 586 00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:07,840 a lot of work within the noetic sciences 587 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:11,980 and consciousness but you have a very 588 00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:14,110 interesting story in your book about 589 00:27:18,630 --> 00:27:16,240 Edgar Mitchell who we know is the sixth 590 00:27:20,910 --> 00:27:18,640 man to walk on the moon and this has to 591 00:27:23,130 --> 00:27:20,920 do with the moon would you mind telling 592 00:27:23,940 --> 00:27:23,140 us this story it's absolutely 593 00:27:26,970 --> 00:27:23,950 fascinating 594 00:27:30,690 --> 00:27:26,980 I loved interviewing Edgar Mitchell and 595 00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:30,700 you know he he was such a sort of hero 596 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:32,500 to me in many regards and I'll tell you 597 00:27:38,340 --> 00:27:36,730 why I get the ideas for my books usually 598 00:27:40,350 --> 00:27:38,350 when I'm finishing up the previous book 599 00:27:42,060 --> 00:27:40,360 so I was the pentagon's brain in the 600 00:27:45,630 --> 00:27:42,070 book about dark was really about hard 601 00:27:48,570 --> 00:27:45,640 science and involved a lot of you know 602 00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:48,580 space science if you will because that's 603 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:51,670 why DARPA was founded and I came across 604 00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:54,130 in the Apollo image library a photograph 605 00:27:58,560 --> 00:27:57,130 of a man on the moon but if you look a 606 00:28:01,380 --> 00:27:58,570 master not on the moon but if you look 607 00:28:05,670 --> 00:28:01,390 closely in his gloved hand you realize 608 00:28:07,170 --> 00:28:05,680 he's reading a document he's reading a 609 00:28:09,210 --> 00:28:07,180 piece of paper on the moon and I thought 610 00:28:11,220 --> 00:28:09,220 like my god this is like such an 611 00:28:14,130 --> 00:28:11,230 incredible image of the most advanced 612 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:14,140 science you know space travel and yet 613 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:17,770 then you have like pre science 614 00:28:22,740 --> 00:28:20,530 I mean proto science that's what writing 615 00:28:24,330 --> 00:28:22,750 is I mean without writing without cuting 616 00:28:27,710 --> 00:28:24,340 of the original writing which we now 617 00:28:31,530 --> 00:28:27,720 believe it scania formed from sort of 618 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:31,540 2800 BC without writing we wouldn't have 619 00:28:38,540 --> 00:28:35,650 a science and so here here's this here 620 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:38,550 was this image which contained these two 621 00:28:42,390 --> 00:28:41,050 concepts in a single image and I just 622 00:28:43,830 --> 00:28:42,400 found it remarkable but more 623 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:43,840 specifically I have to know what that 624 00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:45,850 astronaut was reading right how would he 625 00:28:49,530 --> 00:28:48,310 be reading on the moon and I went I 626 00:28:52,230 --> 00:28:49,540 tracked him down it was Edgar Mitchell 627 00:28:57,060 --> 00:28:52,240 Apollo 14 and what he told me is that he 628 00:28:59,340 --> 00:28:57,070 was reading a map my god he was reading 629 00:29:02,940 --> 00:28:59,350 here is a photograph of a man on the 630 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:02,950 moon reading a map of the moon 631 00:29:09,419 --> 00:29:07,210 the moon why because they were lost and 632 00:29:14,970 --> 00:29:09,429 I found this again so human you could 633 00:29:18,299 --> 00:29:14,980 travel 240,000 miles Mitchell was the 634 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:18,309 pilot on the ant Aras landing craft he 635 00:29:25,039 --> 00:29:21,490 sat down the spacecraft within 87 feet 636 00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:25,049 of the target and then they got lost 637 00:29:30,450 --> 00:29:29,710 locally I mean what a brilliant I mean 638 00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:30,460 you know 639 00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:32,950 the quest for phenomena the quest is in 640 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:34,870 fact an advancing science versus a 641 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:37,450 supernatural this is hogwash this isn't 642 00:29:42,750 --> 00:29:39,370 going to lead us to new discoveries that 643 00:29:45,690 --> 00:29:42,760 debate so much inherent and all of that 644 00:29:47,970 --> 00:29:45,700 is about getting lost I mean you have to 645 00:29:50,279 --> 00:29:47,980 be able to get lost to find your way I 646 00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:50,289 believe every single one of my four 647 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:50,799 books 648 00:29:57,180 --> 00:29:54,370 it was amazing to write for me because I 649 00:29:59,310 --> 00:29:57,190 had elderly statesmen the scientists 650 00:30:01,200 --> 00:29:59,320 talking to me not just about their 651 00:30:03,539 --> 00:30:01,210 incredible success stories but about 652 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:03,549 their failures about when they felt lost 653 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:06,010 you know because that is how you can 654 00:30:13,500 --> 00:30:10,570 really I think grow as a society and you 655 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:13,510 know as a human and here was Mitchell 656 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:15,490 saying I got lost on the moon and it was 657 00:30:21,149 --> 00:30:18,490 devastating him because as he said they 658 00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:21,159 got lost they could not find their 659 00:30:26,190 --> 00:30:22,960 target which was cone crater they were 660 00:30:27,870 --> 00:30:26,200 supposed to grab some rocks from inside 661 00:30:30,509 --> 00:30:27,880 of cone crater which was a meteorite 662 00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:30,519 crater geologists back on earth believed 663 00:30:34,950 --> 00:30:32,110 if they could only bring these rocks 664 00:30:37,409 --> 00:30:34,960 home they might be able to solve the 665 00:30:41,279 --> 00:30:37,419 ageless mystery of how the moon was 666 00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:41,289 actually formed up the earth I mean talk 667 00:30:46,049 --> 00:30:44,080 about a tall order they got lost they 668 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:46,059 couldn't reach the target and they had 669 00:30:50,879 --> 00:30:48,250 to come home and Mitchell said he was 670 00:30:53,669 --> 00:30:50,889 devastated but it was on that flight 671 00:30:55,860 --> 00:30:53,679 home that he had what I write about a 672 00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:55,870 lot in the book is what was called a 673 00:31:00,629 --> 00:30:58,330 conversion moment looking out one of the 674 00:31:03,139 --> 00:31:00,639 windows of the spacecraft looking out 675 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:03,149 into space looking out into the universe 676 00:31:08,909 --> 00:31:05,970 Mitchell told me that he became 677 00:31:12,450 --> 00:31:08,919 absolutely convinced that man was not 678 00:31:14,820 --> 00:31:12,460 just what we thought that man's ability 679 00:31:16,610 --> 00:31:14,830 the reaches of knowledge but we were we 680 00:31:18,799 --> 00:31:16,620 were thinking small there were so much 681 00:31:22,970 --> 00:31:18,809 bigger than that and he believed the 682 00:31:24,650 --> 00:31:22,980 answer lay in consciousness and so he 683 00:31:28,490 --> 00:31:24,660 came back from that from the moon 684 00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:28,500 he quit NASA divorced his wife made all 685 00:31:34,330 --> 00:31:31,200 new friends dedicated the rest of his 686 00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:34,340 life toward research into ESP 687 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:37,260 psychokinesis and he became a front for 688 00:31:41,930 --> 00:31:40,050 the CIA and that's where I knew I had to 689 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:41,940 tell this story I mean it was thanks to 690 00:31:46,730 --> 00:31:44,250 that interview with Edgar Mitchell that 691 00:31:48,140 --> 00:31:46,740 really inspired me to write phenomena 692 00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:48,150 Wow 693 00:31:53,390 --> 00:31:51,120 what he interesting journey he had and I 694 00:31:55,990 --> 00:31:53,400 can understand how that could be such a 695 00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:56,000 catalyst for this work that you've done 696 00:32:02,510 --> 00:31:58,410 now anyway like you mentioned earlier 697 00:32:04,460 --> 00:32:02,520 this is primarily a UFO show so my 698 00:32:07,870 --> 00:32:04,470 listeners would probably be remiss if I 699 00:32:11,060 --> 00:32:07,880 didn't ask there is so much skepticism 700 00:32:14,299 --> 00:32:11,070 for very good reasons when it comes to 701 00:32:16,940 --> 00:32:14,309 the UFO topic especially within the 702 00:32:18,650 --> 00:32:16,950 scientific community and this goes for 703 00:32:22,610 --> 00:32:18,660 the paranormal and supernatural as well 704 00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:22,620 why why do you think you know that there 705 00:32:28,250 --> 00:32:25,200 is such a hard-line debunking or even a 706 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:28,260 hostility as I've heard you say or do 707 00:32:35,210 --> 00:32:32,010 these types of subjects I'm fascinated 708 00:32:36,980 --> 00:32:35,220 by I mean I have a couple ideas but of 709 00:32:38,870 --> 00:32:36,990 course every one of my books touches 710 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:38,880 upon these issues and I have interviewed 711 00:32:45,530 --> 00:32:41,730 you know literally hundreds of 712 00:32:49,220 --> 00:32:45,540 scientists who work in the Defense 713 00:32:51,770 --> 00:32:49,230 Department and the CIA and have advised 714 00:32:55,490 --> 00:32:51,780 the President and have advised the Joint 715 00:32:59,840 --> 00:32:55,500 Chiefs of Staff and have won Nobel 716 00:33:05,180 --> 00:32:59,850 prizes and they are absolutely divided 717 00:33:10,010 --> 00:33:05,190 right there are those a majority who you 718 00:33:14,740 --> 00:33:10,020 know load the idea of ufology 719 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:14,750 but there are those a minority who are 720 00:33:24,350 --> 00:33:20,610 in the work as I say and you know these 721 00:33:27,980 --> 00:33:24,360 are brilliant lines and so I would be 722 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:27,990 extremely short-sighted to be anything 723 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:29,730 other than open-minded 724 00:33:36,740 --> 00:33:32,130 that I just take the long the long view 725 00:33:38,750 --> 00:33:36,750 right I mean so why does the debate it 726 00:33:40,370 --> 00:33:38,760 just whoa okay so hold what I also find 727 00:33:46,130 --> 00:33:40,380 interesting is that as I said the 728 00:33:47,540 --> 00:33:46,140 majority of scientists in the Defense 729 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:47,550 Department in the intelligence community 730 00:33:54,710 --> 00:33:51,530 are what Gertrude Schneider called goats 731 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:54,720 they are scientific skeptics and the 732 00:33:59,870 --> 00:33:57,690 other term Gertrude smiler was a Harvard 733 00:34:03,350 --> 00:33:59,880 experimental psychologist who created 734 00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:03,360 the goats and the sheep at paradigm to 735 00:34:08,270 --> 00:34:05,910 talk about how people approach UFO or 736 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:08,280 how people approach any of this subject 737 00:34:11,870 --> 00:34:08,610 matter 738 00:34:13,460 --> 00:34:11,880 yes P psychokinesis any of the you could 739 00:34:17,210 --> 00:34:13,470 call it paranormal you could call it an 740 00:34:19,490 --> 00:34:17,220 ominous cognition sheep are the people 741 00:34:22,070 --> 00:34:19,500 on the other side who are open to the 742 00:34:25,270 --> 00:34:22,080 idea or the possibility that this could 743 00:34:30,490 --> 00:34:25,280 be real what I'm fascinated by is that 744 00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:30,500 Gallup polls show that 76% of Americans 745 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:36,960 are sheep and only 24% are goats so the 746 00:34:44,950 --> 00:34:38,970 scientific community is swung the other 747 00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:44,960 way but the general public is open to 748 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:48,240 this idea and I find that general public 749 00:34:53,740 --> 00:34:49,770 interesting because that's where I think 750 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:53,750 people are working from their 751 00:35:00,020 --> 00:34:57,810 experiences as opposed to their what 752 00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:00,030 they think they should think and I do 753 00:35:03,380 --> 00:35:01,710 have to say that I interviewed a lot of 754 00:35:04,820 --> 00:35:03,390 skeptics for that for a phenomena 755 00:35:06,650 --> 00:35:04,830 because that's part of the job of being 756 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:06,660 a journalist want to tell the neutral 757 00:35:12,140 --> 00:35:08,850 story tell the other side but I did I 758 00:35:14,660 --> 00:35:12,150 did find an incredible sort of 759 00:35:16,610 --> 00:35:14,670 snootiness on the part that I found 760 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:16,620 really I kind limiting and I find 761 00:35:21,580 --> 00:35:18,930 unhelpful but people would kind of 762 00:35:24,170 --> 00:35:21,590 insult you know people was kind of 763 00:35:27,610 --> 00:35:24,180 suggest that you were intellectually 764 00:35:30,050 --> 00:35:27,620 inferior you know for even wanting to 765 00:35:31,970 --> 00:35:30,060 investigate these areas that I find 766 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:31,980 fascinating and I find it quite fun to 767 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:33,690 be honest with you to then say well 768 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:34,770 that's your opinion 769 00:35:38,750 --> 00:35:36,810 call me intellectually inferior if 770 00:35:40,970 --> 00:35:38,760 you're like oh well I'm going to do this 771 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:40,980 research and it's reporting because boys 772 00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:43,170 and interesting boy or these 773 00:35:46,849 --> 00:35:44,880 individuals interested I mean kit Greene 774 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:46,859 told me the best story he write about 775 00:35:52,549 --> 00:35:48,650 him at length in the book one of my 776 00:35:54,530 --> 00:35:52,559 absolutely most interesting interviews I 777 00:35:56,809 --> 00:35:54,540 think were with green because of what 778 00:36:00,859 --> 00:35:56,819 he's also doing today with you with you 779 00:36:02,180 --> 00:36:00,869 follow G but and again he was Gellert 780 00:36:05,089 --> 00:36:02,190 you know he looked at the physiology of 781 00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:05,099 Geller and others in the 70s he ended 782 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:11,040 his long career with CIA retired and is 783 00:36:14,750 --> 00:36:13,290 now working again with Defense 784 00:36:17,809 --> 00:36:14,760 Department he never stopped working he's 785 00:36:20,930 --> 00:36:17,819 on some of the most prestigious science 786 00:36:23,660 --> 00:36:20,940 boards in the nation I mean six months 787 00:36:28,309 --> 00:36:23,670 ago he was on general clapper head of 788 00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:28,319 the DNI like a nine or ten man scientist 789 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:30,569 board to advise the Director of National 790 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:32,130 Intelligence for the president I mean 791 00:36:37,220 --> 00:36:34,650 that's a huge job and yet what green 792 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:37,230 told me is when he lectures at the 793 00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:42,690 Pentagon about anomalous situations uh 794 00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:44,640 you know that we're talking about which 795 00:36:50,660 --> 00:36:47,910 touch upon not just anomalous mental 796 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:50,670 cognition but also anomalous visual 797 00:36:55,460 --> 00:36:53,130 sightings of things like orbs and he 798 00:36:58,549 --> 00:36:55,470 talks about this and sort of said the 799 00:37:01,160 --> 00:36:58,559 scientists all sit there you know aghast 800 00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:01,170 how dare you talk about this but up at 801 00:37:06,109 --> 00:37:03,839 the coffee break everyone comes up and 802 00:37:07,309 --> 00:37:06,119 ask him questions but no one wants to 803 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:07,319 talk about it on the record 804 00:37:12,829 --> 00:37:09,450 boy do I think that's interesting that 805 00:37:14,539 --> 00:37:12,839 is I could not mirror that anymore I 806 00:37:17,170 --> 00:37:14,549 mean there have been times I've gone to 807 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:17,180 these UFO conventions which are an 808 00:37:22,309 --> 00:37:20,730 absolute treat I I would love to see 809 00:37:25,250 --> 00:37:22,319 your thoughts on going to one of those 810 00:37:28,490 --> 00:37:25,260 someday uh but you do you see these very 811 00:37:30,829 --> 00:37:28,500 I guess you could say intellectually 812 00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:30,839 snooty individuals who get up there and 813 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:34,710 talk about the the very objective and 814 00:37:39,319 --> 00:37:36,690 skeptical side of UFOs and then you get 815 00:37:41,660 --> 00:37:39,329 one beer in them and they start telling 816 00:37:44,420 --> 00:37:41,670 you no individual by individual the real 817 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:44,430 story the stuff they actually have an 818 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:46,410 honest opinion about it's it's 819 00:37:51,319 --> 00:37:50,010 fascinating it is and it also you know 820 00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:51,329 there's lots of different rabbit holes 821 00:37:56,060 --> 00:37:52,710 to go down and I think 822 00:37:57,650 --> 00:37:56,070 at there you just have to you have to 823 00:38:00,770 --> 00:37:57,660 pick your people in essence I mean I 824 00:38:06,260 --> 00:38:00,780 know with Edgar Mitchell I what I found 825 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:06,270 because he became very entrenched in in 826 00:38:11,210 --> 00:38:09,570 ufology and in alien visitations and in 827 00:38:14,660 --> 00:38:11,220 my opinion and again this is just my 828 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:14,670 opinion I leave it out of the book but 829 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:17,250 my opinion is that he got used by a 830 00:38:22,550 --> 00:38:19,770 number of groups because of his 831 00:38:25,099 --> 00:38:22,560 high-profile nature and they pulled him 832 00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:25,109 into an arena where he was where he was 833 00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:27,089 even more ridiculed if you will but in 834 00:38:35,540 --> 00:38:30,720 essence he his ideas about consciousness 835 00:38:38,540 --> 00:38:35,550 about the exploration of the far reaches 836 00:38:41,810 --> 00:38:38,550 of what man can know we're extraordinary 837 00:38:43,339 --> 00:38:41,820 you know to think about and and he 838 00:38:48,109 --> 00:38:43,349 dedicated his life to it I mean he was a 839 00:38:52,609 --> 00:38:48,119 PhD from MIT and when we read the 840 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:52,619 transcript of that you know Apollo 14 841 00:38:56,300 --> 00:38:54,810 mission or you can read the chapters in 842 00:38:59,500 --> 00:38:56,310 my book on Ed Mitchell because I 843 00:39:02,780 --> 00:38:59,510 condensed a few I mean the remarkable 844 00:39:06,380 --> 00:39:02,790 the remarkable circumstances in which 845 00:39:08,690 --> 00:39:06,390 they functioned we talk about 846 00:39:10,190 --> 00:39:08,700 extraordinary human functioning I mean 847 00:39:12,260 --> 00:39:10,200 that's what the Chinese call their 848 00:39:15,020 --> 00:39:12,270 paranormal programs if you will their 849 00:39:16,670 --> 00:39:15,030 ESP programs extraordinary human body 850 00:39:20,060 --> 00:39:16,680 functions that's what Mitchell had 851 00:39:24,849 --> 00:39:20,070 that's what he was capable of and yet to 852 00:39:28,460 --> 00:39:24,859 be ridiculed because of his far-reaching 853 00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:28,470 speculative ideas again I think that's 854 00:39:35,150 --> 00:39:32,640 unhelpful and it's it but but there are 855 00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:35,160 degrees to which people take anything 856 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:36,990 and I also write about some of those 857 00:39:41,620 --> 00:39:39,450 individuals in my book where you can 858 00:39:44,599 --> 00:39:41,630 pursue a subject to the gates of hell 859 00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:44,609 and I you know there's a we haven't 860 00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:46,710 spoken about and people can certainly 861 00:39:51,079 --> 00:39:49,020 read phenomenon and get this what I 862 00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:51,089 think is this amazing story of Andreya 863 00:39:59,150 --> 00:39:54,710 Parakh who is one of the early early 864 00:40:01,460 --> 00:39:59,160 MKULTRA doctors and I interviewed his 865 00:40:02,510 --> 00:40:01,470 son and I found lost archives I don't 866 00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:02,520 know if they were ever lost maybe they 867 00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:03,510 just were never found 868 00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:05,609 in the Library of Congress and letters 869 00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:06,570 that he was writing 870 00:40:10,670 --> 00:40:08,640 two different if it's benefactors or 871 00:40:13,370 --> 00:40:10,680 Forbes and the Astor's in the DuPont's 872 00:40:14,690 --> 00:40:13,380 they were financing his work the CIA was 873 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:14,700 financing his work the Defense 874 00:40:19,550 --> 00:40:17,250 Department was I mean he was at the 875 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:19,560 forefront in the ninth in the late 40s 876 00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:22,410 and 50s and 60s of all this research but 877 00:40:29,060 --> 00:40:26,910 then he became you know a little too 878 00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,070 entrenched he took a few too many magic 879 00:40:33,620 --> 00:40:31,200 mushrooms and I mean that literally by 880 00:40:36,650 --> 00:40:33,630 his own admittance in his journals and 881 00:40:38,450 --> 00:40:36,660 kind of pursued this to what's on the 882 00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:38,460 table is the gates of Hell so you have 883 00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:40,020 different cautionary tales throughout 884 00:40:47,750 --> 00:40:44,310 phenomena about how far how far will 885 00:40:50,330 --> 00:40:47,760 this go absolutely you know and it is it 886 00:40:51,980 --> 00:40:50,340 is endless and it it really depends on 887 00:40:57,710 --> 00:40:51,990 the individual like which route they 888 00:41:00,200 --> 00:40:57,720 take and I do want to touch on the fact 889 00:41:01,940 --> 00:41:00,210 that within your book you mentioned that 890 00:41:03,860 --> 00:41:01,950 most of these programs they were either 891 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:03,870 like you mentioned moved to a different 892 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:06,570 department or they were closed down they 893 00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:08,010 were terminated you know there there 894 00:41:14,510 --> 00:41:10,710 wasn't anything to to the public at 895 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:14,520 least to be officially gleaned from 896 00:41:19,250 --> 00:41:17,610 these studies do you believe any and I 897 00:41:22,610 --> 00:41:19,260 know that you write about this that they 898 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:22,620 could still be going on well they 899 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:24,810 absolutely are going on that there is no 900 00:41:30,140 --> 00:41:26,490 question I mean I'll give you an example 901 00:41:33,860 --> 00:41:30,150 the Office of Naval Research explores 902 00:41:36,530 --> 00:41:33,870 what they call premonition and intuition 903 00:41:39,110 --> 00:41:36,540 in sailors and Marines I mean that is 904 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:39,120 you know they call it anomalous mental 905 00:41:48,170 --> 00:41:43,650 cognition that is a different name for 906 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:48,180 ESP they another doctor there cause of a 907 00:41:52,310 --> 00:41:50,970 spidey sense they you know there's 908 00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:52,320 another program they call sense making 909 00:41:57,710 --> 00:41:54,960 okay this is the actual definition since 910 00:42:00,260 --> 00:41:57,720 making think about that that very broad 911 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:00,270 and vague what they defined it as the 912 00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:03,810 motivated continuous effort to 913 00:42:12,610 --> 00:42:07,710 understand connections among people 914 00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:12,620 places and events in order to anticipate 915 00:42:18,500 --> 00:42:16,110 their trajectories and act effectively I 916 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:18,510 mean that's premonition right there and 917 00:42:22,170 --> 00:42:19,930 that program 918 00:42:27,359 --> 00:42:22,180 the Office of Naval Research says in 919 00:42:30,930 --> 00:42:27,369 interviews was born of a of a situation 920 00:42:34,380 --> 00:42:30,940 in Iraq whereby a soldier with the sixth 921 00:42:36,180 --> 00:42:34,390 sense said to his men do we're not going 922 00:42:39,059 --> 00:42:36,190 down that Street there's an IAD buried 923 00:42:43,380 --> 00:42:39,069 there they send the robot out there's an 924 00:42:45,930 --> 00:42:43,390 IAD now that soldier becomes interesting 925 00:42:50,190 --> 00:42:45,940 to the Defense Department but in 20 in 926 00:42:51,990 --> 00:42:50,200 the present day in 2017 instead of going 927 00:42:53,940 --> 00:42:52,000 into the laboratory and you know in the 928 00:42:55,769 --> 00:42:53,950 Faraday cage and conducting experiments 929 00:42:57,779 --> 00:42:55,779 right off they're now looking at that 930 00:43:00,000 --> 00:42:57,789 soldier's physiology looking at his 931 00:43:04,349 --> 00:43:00,010 neurobiology and as it was said to me 932 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:04,359 trying to map that physiology in the 933 00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:07,930 brain and then model it and then 934 00:43:11,819 --> 00:43:10,480 accelerate it and because you're talking 935 00:43:15,809 --> 00:43:11,829 about the Defense Department the word 936 00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:15,819 accelerate means to weaponize it exactly 937 00:43:21,089 --> 00:43:18,569 right so it's basically you know 938 00:43:24,059 --> 00:43:21,099 rewrapping the Christmas present that's 939 00:43:26,730 --> 00:43:24,069 it where with a new wrapping brilliant 940 00:43:28,950 --> 00:43:26,740 analogy and again you notice no mention 941 00:43:31,410 --> 00:43:28,960 of the supernatural no mention of though 942 00:43:34,589 --> 00:43:31,420 without never mind where the soldier 943 00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:34,599 gets his spidey sense okay and here's 944 00:43:39,299 --> 00:43:35,680 where I think it gets very interesting 945 00:43:41,789 --> 00:43:39,309 because and this is a question because 946 00:43:43,589 --> 00:43:41,799 in the 70s and 80s you would okay find 947 00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:43,599 the CIA can ignore the question where is 948 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:47,890 it coming from right but now it seems 949 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:49,770 like what the Defense Department is 950 00:43:59,700 --> 00:43:53,890 leaning into is using computer 951 00:44:01,410 --> 00:43:59,710 technology to legitimize the research in 952 00:44:03,059 --> 00:44:01,420 the same way that the CIA drew the 953 00:44:05,130 --> 00:44:03,069 inescapable conclusion that the 954 00:44:07,799 --> 00:44:05,140 phenomena exist if Defense Department 955 00:44:10,890 --> 00:44:07,809 today can point to a brain scan and say 956 00:44:14,099 --> 00:44:10,900 look this is what's going on they can 957 00:44:16,410 --> 00:44:14,109 then finance and so then the question 958 00:44:19,109 --> 00:44:16,420 which i think is marvelous is my 959 00:44:21,210 --> 00:44:19,119 goodness will the modern era this 960 00:44:23,180 --> 00:44:21,220 incredible advance of technology that we 961 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:23,190 have now with computers with nano 962 00:44:29,609 --> 00:44:27,130 technology with nano biotechnology will 963 00:44:32,410 --> 00:44:29,619 this advance of Science and Technology 964 00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:32,420 allow us to solve 965 00:44:37,299 --> 00:44:34,880 this ancient mystery is in fact is it 966 00:44:42,809 --> 00:44:37,309 fantasy is it science is it the super 967 00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:46,210 will the debate continue and that is 968 00:44:50,559 --> 00:44:47,839 really interesting and exciting to be at 969 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:50,569 that moment in time I think absolutely 970 00:44:55,150 --> 00:44:53,210 and I think your your book and the 971 00:44:58,210 --> 00:44:55,160 subsequent projects that I'm sure will 972 00:45:00,970 --> 00:44:58,220 stem from this book is is the inception 973 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:00,980 of that question of you know whether 974 00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:03,410 it's real or not how is it being used 975 00:45:07,779 --> 00:45:05,839 and why isn't the public being made 976 00:45:10,180 --> 00:45:07,789 aware of that like you said it is to 977 00:45:15,029 --> 00:45:10,190 weaponize we all know there's no money 978 00:45:19,829 --> 00:45:15,039 in peace so while these abilities 979 00:45:23,890 --> 00:45:19,839 whether from within or from without 980 00:45:25,569 --> 00:45:23,900 could benefit mankind the idea of this 981 00:45:27,940 --> 00:45:25,579 that you've touched on in most of your 982 00:45:32,589 --> 00:45:27,950 books is that it will always be used as 983 00:45:35,380 --> 00:45:32,599 a weapon as a defense said in many 984 00:45:38,559 --> 00:45:35,390 respects but understandable in terms of 985 00:45:40,809 --> 00:45:38,569 a military mindset it's fascinating I 986 00:45:44,289 --> 00:45:40,819 look forward to seeing where your 987 00:45:46,269 --> 00:45:44,299 research on this goes are you continuing 988 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:46,279 your research into this after the book 989 00:45:51,579 --> 00:45:48,170 has been released what's super 990 00:45:54,789 --> 00:45:51,589 interesting to me my heart and soul is 991 00:45:59,410 --> 00:45:54,799 in journalism is being a reporter but my 992 00:46:02,440 --> 00:45:59,420 books wind up in the world of fiction in 993 00:46:05,460 --> 00:46:02,450 the world of television and that's a 994 00:46:09,249 --> 00:46:05,470 long development process but phenomena 995 00:46:13,210 --> 00:46:09,259 has been is in development now with 996 00:46:17,650 --> 00:46:13,220 Stevens Goldbergs Amblin and jason blum 997 00:46:19,569 --> 00:46:17,660 blum house so you have the company that 998 00:46:21,549 --> 00:46:19,579 brought you you know et and Close 999 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:21,559 Encounters of the Third Kind and decades 1000 00:46:27,370 --> 00:46:24,890 of movies since merging powers if you 1001 00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:27,380 will with the company that brought you 1002 00:46:34,420 --> 00:46:31,970 paranormal activity okay and I'm 1003 00:46:37,740 --> 00:46:34,430 involved in this creatively in terms of 1004 00:46:42,730 --> 00:46:37,750 storytelling and so some of the more 1005 00:46:46,330 --> 00:46:42,740 exciting let's say far out there unpack 1006 00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,340 checkable stories which I'll ER 1007 00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:48,560 burnt on the scientists from the 1008 00:46:52,180 --> 00:46:49,910 psychics while I was writing this 1009 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:52,190 project then I couldn't put in phenomena 1010 00:46:57,670 --> 00:46:55,370 the narrative nonfiction book because 1011 00:46:58,930 --> 00:46:57,680 they were a single source and they 1012 00:47:00,900 --> 00:46:58,940 couldn't be fact-checked which they 1013 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:00,910 couldn't beat but rest with you know 1014 00:47:05,620 --> 00:47:04,130 declassified documents those incredible 1015 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:05,630 stories which have me at the edge of my 1016 00:47:12,130 --> 00:47:09,490 seat and find their home in this 1017 00:47:14,410 --> 00:47:12,140 fictional world and I think that is 1018 00:47:17,230 --> 00:47:14,420 super exciting so when you say will the 1019 00:47:20,170 --> 00:47:17,240 work continue absolutely it will 1020 00:47:22,330 --> 00:47:20,180 continue let's see that's very exciting 1021 00:47:25,090 --> 00:47:22,340 and we all know you know Spielberg has 1022 00:47:26,710 --> 00:47:25,100 been known to put troops into his 1023 00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:26,720 fiction Close Encounters 1024 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:28,910 like you said comes to mind Jacques that 1025 00:47:34,690 --> 00:47:31,490 way was featured in their film many case 1026 00:47:37,930 --> 00:47:34,700 reports from supposed alien encounters 1027 00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:37,940 were included in that as well that's 1028 00:47:42,070 --> 00:47:40,250 that's very interesting and we see that 1029 00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:42,080 a lot lately with the blending of 1030 00:47:48,220 --> 00:47:45,050 fiction and these small truths being 1031 00:47:50,710 --> 00:47:48,230 almost disclosed to the public so I 1032 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:50,720 definitely look forward to that do you 1033 00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:52,370 have any other projects upcoming 1034 00:47:57,250 --> 00:47:55,250 projects coming well I'm always writing 1035 00:47:58,900 --> 00:47:57,260 another book so that's about that 1036 00:48:00,610 --> 00:47:58,910 negative I said that's really where my 1037 00:48:03,790 --> 00:48:00,620 heart soul lies but you know back to 1038 00:48:08,290 --> 00:48:03,800 that idea of of science fiction and 1039 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:08,300 science fact what you just touched upon 1040 00:48:13,470 --> 00:48:10,490 where these idea the fiction writers 1041 00:48:16,930 --> 00:48:13,480 plant their plant truths in fiction the 1042 00:48:19,420 --> 00:48:16,940 reverse is also true and maybe this is a 1043 00:48:22,060 --> 00:48:19,430 great little vignette and upon because I 1044 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:22,070 found one of my most interesting 1045 00:48:29,500 --> 00:48:25,850 interviews was for the DARPA book 1046 00:48:33,010 --> 00:48:29,510 where I interviewed Charles Townes who 1047 00:48:35,380 --> 00:48:33,020 won the Nobel Prize in 1964 for 1048 00:48:38,020 --> 00:48:35,390 inventing the laser okay 1049 00:48:42,430 --> 00:48:38,030 and the laser there is one of arguably 1050 00:48:43,900 --> 00:48:42,440 the most important dual use technology 1051 00:48:45,550 --> 00:48:43,910 advances of the modern world I mean you 1052 00:48:47,860 --> 00:48:45,560 have laser weapons that's leading 1053 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:47,870 Pentagon tech technology now all 1054 00:48:52,150 --> 00:48:49,610 classified and then you have laser 1055 00:48:55,450 --> 00:48:52,160 printers laser eye surgery laser you 1056 00:48:58,720 --> 00:48:55,460 know knee surgery okay and Charles 1057 00:49:00,820 --> 00:48:58,730 Townes was 1058 00:49:03,970 --> 00:49:00,830 - two points that he that he told me 1059 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:03,980 that just really made me think bigger 1060 00:49:09,310 --> 00:49:05,570 and broader than I thought before one 1061 00:49:12,970 --> 00:49:09,320 was that his idea for inventing the 1062 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:12,980 laser came to him originally the 1063 00:49:20,260 --> 00:49:16,010 original seed was planted when he was a 1064 00:49:24,099 --> 00:49:20,270 little boy reading science fiction Yuri 1065 00:49:24,430 --> 00:49:24,109 Gagarin the death ray that's what it was 1066 00:49:26,370 --> 00:49:24,440 called 1067 00:49:29,859 --> 00:49:26,380 so the fiction writer had kind of 1068 00:49:32,890 --> 00:49:29,869 conceived the laser you know decades 1069 00:49:35,250 --> 00:49:32,900 before and that inspired town but then 1070 00:49:38,710 --> 00:49:35,260 he told me a really interesting story 1071 00:49:40,180 --> 00:49:38,720 now we remember this is a man of science 1072 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:40,190 who won the Nobel Prize 1073 00:49:45,730 --> 00:49:42,050 so we talked earlier about the within or 1074 00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:45,740 though without Charles Townes confirmed 1075 00:49:52,060 --> 00:49:48,230 a story with me that had been good that 1076 00:49:54,580 --> 00:49:52,070 had been reported elsewhere that when he 1077 00:50:00,370 --> 00:49:54,590 was a grown man he was sitting on a park 1078 00:50:04,240 --> 00:50:00,380 bench when the idea of how to create the 1079 00:50:08,620 --> 00:50:04,250 laser came to him and he believed that 1080 00:50:10,810 --> 00:50:08,630 the idea came to him from with out it 1081 00:50:12,730 --> 00:50:10,820 was a Eureka moment for him but it came 1082 00:50:14,710 --> 00:50:12,740 to him from some kind of a supernatural 1083 00:50:18,580 --> 00:50:14,720 being in his case because he was a man 1084 00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:18,590 of faith he defined that as God Wow I 1085 00:50:23,230 --> 00:50:21,290 found this fascinating and it's the 1086 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:23,240 story I would always use was kind of my 1087 00:50:29,140 --> 00:50:27,770 Charles Townes trump card wet and the 1088 00:50:30,970 --> 00:50:29,150 scientific skeptics who I would be 1089 00:50:33,010 --> 00:50:30,980 interviewing would you know kind of 1090 00:50:35,109 --> 00:50:33,020 doubt my intelligence and say you know 1091 00:50:37,590 --> 00:50:35,119 no scientists worth his salt ever even 1092 00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:37,600 believes in any such a thing is 1093 00:50:41,620 --> 00:50:39,710 inspiration from a supernatural being 1094 00:50:44,470 --> 00:50:41,630 and I could say well that's not what 1095 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:44,480 Charles Towne told me and so you know I 1096 00:50:50,620 --> 00:50:47,570 love that interview with him I loved 1097 00:50:52,780 --> 00:50:50,630 having and I loved having that idea of 1098 00:50:54,190 --> 00:50:52,790 and by the way he said he went back to 1099 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:54,200 the Princeton Institute for Advanced 1100 00:50:59,800 --> 00:50:56,450 Study and had the debate with Einstein 1101 00:51:00,550 --> 00:50:59,810 and John von Neumann so it just has this 1102 00:51:07,780 --> 00:51:00,560 marvelous 1103 00:51:11,380 --> 00:51:07,790 what I think phenomenon is about is what 1104 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:11,390 are the reaches of what man can know 1105 00:51:18,910 --> 00:51:14,810 and who gets to decide what is 1106 00:51:21,970 --> 00:51:18,920 inspiration who gets to decide what is 1107 00:51:24,810 --> 00:51:21,980 getting lost and who gets to decide what 1108 00:51:28,210 --> 00:51:24,820 is science fiction and what is I in fact 1109 00:51:30,670 --> 00:51:28,220 absolutely and I think your book shows 1110 00:51:33,700 --> 00:51:30,680 that that debate goes on that 1111 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:33,710 conversation continues and more people 1112 00:51:39,850 --> 00:51:35,810 are opened up to that possibility and 1113 00:51:42,220 --> 00:51:39,860 become that that higher percentage you 1114 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:42,230 know amongst the skeptics and the 1115 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:44,810 debunkers so I can only imagine the 1116 00:51:48,370 --> 00:51:46,130 inspiration this book is going to have 1117 00:51:51,370 --> 00:51:48,380 on many in the scientific fields the 1118 00:51:54,460 --> 00:51:51,380 hard and soft sciences and to the 1119 00:51:57,580 --> 00:51:54,470 believers and skeptics alike any um it's 1120 00:52:00,000 --> 00:51:57,590 an absolutely fascinating book I can't 1121 00:52:02,260 --> 00:52:00,010 wait for people to hear this today and 1122 00:52:02,740 --> 00:52:02,270 where can we find out more about what 1123 00:52:06,420 --> 00:52:02,750 you're up to 1124 00:52:08,530 --> 00:52:06,430 Annie Jacobson comm author website 1125 00:52:10,570 --> 00:52:08,540 awesome and all your work can be found 1126 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:10,580 there any thank you so much for joining 1127 00:52:15,790 --> 00:52:13,330 us today thanks for having me a pleasure 1128 00:52:17,830 --> 00:52:15,800 once again I want to thank Annie 1129 00:52:21,010 --> 00:52:17,840 Jacobson for coming on the show today 1130 00:52:23,890 --> 00:52:21,020 her area51 book has definitely drawn 1131 00:52:25,420 --> 00:52:23,900 some controversy in the UFO field so it 1132 00:52:27,580 --> 00:52:25,430 was very refreshing to talk about 1133 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:27,590 something completely different with her 1134 00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:29,810 again you could find all her books and 1135 00:52:34,270 --> 00:52:32,000 her upcoming speaking engagements at 1136 00:52:35,950 --> 00:52:34,280 Annie Jacobson com 1137 00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:35,960 also if you happen to live in the 1138 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:38,210 Rochester New York area I'll be giving 1139 00:52:43,870 --> 00:52:41,330 my presentation called UFOs first 1140 00:52:45,220 --> 00:52:43,880 ecology the convergence of experience 1141 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:45,230 and study I'll be giving that 1142 00:52:51,370 --> 00:52:48,050 presentation at the Irondequoit Public 1143 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:51,380 Library on May 10th at 5:30 p.m. I've 1144 00:52:55,810 --> 00:52:53,570 been invited to speak by the Rochester 1145 00:52:58,450 --> 00:52:55,820 UFO meetup group so if you'd like to 1146 00:53:00,220 --> 00:52:58,460 attend please email Cookie Stringfellow 1147 00:53:04,390 --> 00:53:00,230 at Cookie Stringfellow 1148 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:04,400 at TWU c-calm to reserve your spot 1149 00:53:09,730 --> 00:53:07,130 unfortunately walk-ins are not accepted 1150 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:09,740 as space is very limited so definitely 1151 00:53:16,350 --> 00:53:13,130 email her ASAP to learn more again 1152 00:53:18,940 --> 00:53:16,360 that's cookie strength fellow at TWU 1153 00:53:21,070 --> 00:53:18,950 c-calm I'll be doing a meet and greet in 1154 00:53:23,110 --> 00:53:21,080 selling books prior to the presentation 1155 00:53:24,430 --> 00:53:23,120 so if you find yourself in the Rochester 1156 00:53:26,620 --> 00:53:24,440 New York area 1157 00:53:28,450 --> 00:53:26,630 coming join us I'd absolutely love to 1158 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:28,460 meet you if you haven't already please 1159 00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:30,890 consider subscribing rating and 1160 00:53:36,250 --> 00:53:34,130 reviewing the show on iTunes or wherever 1161 00:53:38,140 --> 00:53:36,260 you may listen from it helps more than 1162 00:53:40,210 --> 00:53:38,150 you know and hey if you have a friend 1163 00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:40,220 that may find these topics interesting 1164 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:42,050 share the show with them word-of-mouth 1165 00:53:47,770 --> 00:53:44,330 isn't dead yet my friends if you have a 1166 00:53:49,660 --> 00:53:47,780 story guest or topic suggestion email me 1167 00:53:52,750 --> 00:53:49,670 at Sprague at somewhere in the skies 1168 00:53:55,060 --> 00:53:52,760 calm or visit the website at somewhere 1169 00:53:58,270 --> 00:53:55,070 in the skies comm follow the show on 1170 00:54:00,580 --> 00:53:58,280 twitter at somewhere skies that's it for 1171 00:54:03,310 --> 00:54:00,590 this week's episode join me next Monday 1172 00:54:05,830 --> 00:54:03,320 as we travel south of the border to talk 1173 00:54:08,170 --> 00:54:05,840 you of those over Mexico with a very 1174 00:54:10,660 --> 00:54:08,180 special guest and remember keep your 1175 00:54:14,070 --> 00:54:10,670 feet on the ground but never stop 1176 00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:14,080 searching so in the skies